CWWG

April 1997 Issue of "Common Sense"

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CWWG: April '97 Common Sense Newsletter

Common Sense



A Newsletter of the Chemical Weapons Working Group
Published by the Kentucky Environmental Foundation



April 1997


Chemical Weapons Incineration on Trial!

The Utah chemical weapons incinerator in Tooele Valley, less than 30 miles from Salt Lake City, has been forced to shut down six times due to technical problems since the start up of live nerve agent operations August 22. Within 72 hours of start up the plant was shut down when nerve agent was found leaking from filters outside of the plant.

March 3-7, the Chemical Weapons Working Group, Sierra Club and Vietnam Veterans of America Foundation returned to Federal Court to present new evidence and to ask again for a temporary injunction, before a catastrophic accident occurs. An injunction would have shut the plant down until a full hearing which is scheduled later this year. March 24, Federal Judge Tena Cambell ruled to allow the facility to continue to operate. March 18-20, the CWWG, et al. went before the Utah Division of Solid and Hazardous Waste to ask that the permit for the incinerator be revoked. The State is expected to rule on April 14.

During Federal and State hearings Army and plant managers admitted:

· Nerve agent of unknown quantities is being released in the stack gasses on particulate matter.

· The method being used to monitor stack gasses for nerve agent has never been validated for accuracy or approved by the EPA.

· There have been six confirmed nerve agent stack alarms since start up. However, stack alarms are sounding on average one to two times per week and according to Army manager Tim Thomas, these alarms are being set off by a chemical they can't identify.

· It took 24 hours to discover nerve agent leaks in the vestibules surrounding the plant's filter banks. These vestibules were not designed to be airtight, nonetheless, plant managers continue to insist that during the 24-hour period that nerve agent leaked into the vestibules, none escaped into the environment.

· Prior to discovery of the leak, three workers walked into the contaminated area unprotected.

· Trial burn data for dioxin emissions was falsified. The worker responsible was removed from the job and the test was redone. However, regulators took no enforcement action.

· Risks to workers are increasingthere have been 200 "hot cut-outs" since start up, where workers exiting contaminated areas have had to cut out of their protective suits in the presence of nerve agent without skin protection.


Gulf War Vets Warn Utah Downwinders

by Chip Ward, West Desert HEAL

At a symposium held at Westminster College in Salt Lake City, leaders of the National Gulf War Resource Center and a leading researcher into the causes of chronic illness offered Utahns downwind from the chemical weapons incinerator chilling testimony about the problems now suffered by Gulf War vets who were exposed to low levels of chemical agent. Thousands, they said, are now suffering cruel and debilitating health problems ranging from rashes, diarrhea, memory loss, and joint pain to children with birth defects and even ill spouses. Gulf War vets, they acknowledged, were exposed to questionable immunizations, pesticides, radiation from depleted uranium munitions, and oil well fire smoke. However, exposure to nerve agent, the vets say, was a key ingredient.

It is now clear that scores of thousands of soldiers were exposed to low levels of nerve agent when Iraqi ammunitions were hit and exploded. Those levels were so low that the Army's detection system couldn't confirm them. Supposedly, such low levels are not enough to do harm. Not so, say the vets. If the incinerator should have an accidental leak, like the worst leak at the JACADS pilot plant in the Pacific, or even pass trace amounts of nerve agent downwind over long periods of time, Utahns downwind could e eventually suffer the same fate as ill Gulf War vets.

Dr. Howard Urnovitz, a microbiologist and founder of the Chronic Illness Research Center, explained that exposure to toxins, like the dioxins and dozens of other chemicals present in incineration emissions, can lower immune system function and create pathways for opportunistic viruses that would otherwise not affect a healthy person. He also explained that the interaction of toxins and viruses with the biological remnants that many of us carry in our bodies from polio and other vaccinations can be dangerous.

Members of the Dugway Workers League who were exposed to nerve agent during open air testing in the 1960s were also on hand. They have been suffering for years from the kinds of health problems now experienced by Gulf War vets. When challenged about the link between their illnesses and those of Gulf War vets, they answered that the connection was one of accountability. Had the government acknowledged their problems and followed up, perhaps something would have been learned that could have helped Gulf War vets stay out of harm's way. If Gulf War vets are ignored, then Utahns downwind of the incinerator will also be denied the benefits that could be gained by trying to understand Gulf War illness.

If Gulf War vets are ignored, then Utahns downwind of the incinerator will also be denied the benefits that could be gained by trying to understand Gulf War illness.


Common Sense is published by the Kentucky Environmental Foundation (KEF), a non-profit organization working to support the efforts of grass-roots groups in Kentucky and across the world, who seek the safe disposal of chemical weapons. KEF is the democratically-elected lead organization of the CHEMICAL WEAPONS WORKING GROUP, (CWWG) a coalition of grassroots organizations in the U.S., Pacific and Russia who work toward safe disposal of chemical weapons. CWWG site contacts are listed below. In order for this publication to be truly representative of the movement, we need your input! Please submit your pictures, poems and articles to Elizabeth Crowe, c/o the Kentucky Environmental Foundation, P.O. Box 467, Berea, Kentucky, 40403. We distribute newsletters on a quarterly basis; please call the KEF office at (606) 986-0868 for submission deadlines. Your comments and suggestions are always welcome!


CWWG Supports Chemical Weapons Convention Ratification

On April 29, the U.S. Senate will vote on ratification of the Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC), an international treaty mandating all endorsing countries to destroy their chemical weapons stockpiles by a deadline of 2007. The CWC has already been ratified by 65 other countries the number necessary for the treaty to enter into force. Until recently, the Chemical Weapons Working Group (CWWG) had taken a neutral position on the CWC, because language in the CWC may have mandated incineration as a disposal technology, and the CWC-set disposal deadline may have prevented the development of safer technologies.

In February, representatives of the CWWG met with members of the National Security Council and leaders of national disarmament organizations to discuss CWC ratification. After discussing the concerns raised by the CWWG, it was decided that together, we would petition for a disposal deadline of 2012 -- the 2007 deadline plus the optional 5-year extension -- and make sure that the CWC does not tie the U.S. to incineration as a disposal technology. Those concerns having been addressed, the CWWG agreed to support ratification of the CWC. The meetings resulted in a win-win scenario for all involved!

The National Security Council pledged its support for alternative technologies, which was summed up in a letter from President Clinton to Secretary of Defense William Cohen. Clinton stated he was "committed to going the extra mile" in exploring safer disposal technologies, and asked the Department of Defense to give the alternative technology pilot program "high priority."

On Friday, April 4, CWWG Spokesperson Craig Williams was invited to the White House to attend a Presidential gathering supporting the Chemical Weapons Convention. Along with President Clinton and Vice-President Gore (see pictures at right) Several other political dignitaries were also there, including Secretary of State Madeline Albright, Secretary of Defense William Cohen, former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Colin Powell and Attorney General Janet Reno.

The CWWG also joined disarmament organizations in creating a declaration endorsing the Chemical Weapons Convention, pledging to work together for safe, non-incineration disposal technologies (see page 9). The National Gulf War National Resource Center also signed on, pledging their support for safe methods of chemical weapons disposal.


Citizens lose if Raytheon runs Oregon incinerator

Say you are going to build a house, and you have to pick one of several contractors to build it. Would you pick a company that had been fined for not meeting building codes, was charged with operating illegally and unethically, had put its workers at risk? Of course you wouldn't! Who would hire a company with so many violations for such an important task? The Oregon Environmental Quality Commission did on February 10, when it chose Raytheon Corp. as contractor of the proposed incinerator at the Umatilla Army Depot in Oregon. Raytheon, one of the largest defense contractors in the country, is also the contractor at JACADS, the Pacific's chemical weapons incinerator. In addition to having a bad reputation among environmentalists for its incinerators, Raytheon has a shady background which involves industrial espionage, illegal and unethical violations by its upper management, overcharging and cost inflation.

A background check on the company shows that just in the past five years, Raytheon has paid over $20 million in fines for environmental violations, criminal actions, and by settling out of court for suspect behavior. By their own admission, the company is a "potentially responsible party" (PRP) of 19 hazardous waste sites in the country. Additionally, the 1996 EPA Site Enforcement Tracking System reports that Raytheon is a PRP of 16 Superfund sites. 1988 EPA data shows that Raytheon is also responsible for releasing over 3 million pounds of toxic chemicals into the environment from facilities across the country.


Utah Trial (continued from page 1)

· Subsistence farmers were eliminated from the Health Risk Assessment (HRA) despite the fact that Tooele County is a Mormon community and it is a Mormon practice to be self sufficient and to grow and store a year's worth of food.

· Dairy farmers were eliminated from the HRA because regulators said they couldn't find any nearby, despite a survey by a former TOCDF employee which showed the presence of dairy farmers in the area.

· Thousands of cracks in concrete floors, walls and ceilings permeate the facility. Cracks in concrete caused the second plant shutdown when potentially agent-contaminated solution was found leaking through a concrete floor into an electrical room below.

· The Dunnage incinerator is still not working! As a result, agent-contaminated wooden pallets, rags, carbon filters and protective clothing are being stored in igloos and then shipped out of state for disposal.

· The Brine Reduction Area (BRA) is still not working. The BRA at JACADS has never worked.

· Rockets are jamming in the Deactivation Furnace. Prior to his departure from TOCDF, former General Manager Gary Millar wrote in his journal that this problem, which has also been a problem at JACADS, has the potential of leading to a major incident.

· If there is a major fire, the Fire Suppression System, as designed, will cause a loss in negative air pressure, thereby risking nerve agent release in the facility.

· At the time of start up, workers had not received basic training in how to operate the Fire Suppression System.

· A Risk Management Program has still not been developed at the facility and in January, Quality Assurance Specialist Don Smith wrote in his journal that the Army and EG&G decided not to fund this program.


Non-Stockpile Disposal Program Getting Underway

In addition to the 30,000 tons of chemical weapons stored at nine sites, non-stockpile weapons are scattered over 200 sites at military bases throughout the country. They consist of weapons such as land mines and projectiles, ton containers filled with chemical agent or residues, and chemical agent identification sets, which were used by military personnel for training exercises. Many non-stockpile sites are contaminated because the weapons have been improperly disposed of such as by open-pit burning or dumping in creeks and rivers even if the weapons themselves are no longer there. After so many years of neglect, the identification, recovery and disposal of non-stockpile weapons is going to be a big chore.

Over ten years ago, the Army began visiting communities near chemical weapons stockpile sites, asking for public comment on its "Environmental Impact Statement" for the disposal program. The Environmental Impact Statement (EIS), analyzed the risks of various disposal options, and stated the Army's rationale for choosing incineration as the only technology capable of chemical weapons disposal. Despite receiving volumes of comments from community stakeholders against incineration, the Army proceeded down that path. The Army intended to use incineration no matter what the public thought. Now, as the Army begins drafting an EIS for non-stockpile chemical weapons, it looks like history will be repeating itself: one of the methods being considered for non-stockpile disposal is "on-site thermal destruction," that is, incineration.

Other disposal options, as listed in an information paper distributed by the Army, are 1) on-site chemical treatment with off-site destruction of the wastes by thermal destruction or another disposal method; 2) on-site chemical treatment and on-site destruction/disposal of chemical treatment wastes; 3) off-site chemical treatment and/or thermal destruction or another disposal method; and 4) no action.

The Army estimates that completion of the non-stockpile program could take 40 years, and cost over $15 billion. Much work has already been done on the program. The recovery of weapons has already begun in New Jersey, Alaska, Mississippi, Utah, Colorado and Maryland. Several changes have taken place over the years that are favorable to the argument for safe weapons disposal, that should be included in the non-stockpile EIS. Our knowledge about dangerous incinerator emissions, such as dioxins, has increased. There are now a number of non-incineration "closed-loop" technologies which could safely destroy most non-stockpile weapons. The General Accounting Office estimates that the Army's portable closed-loop system, called the Munitions Management Device, may be ready to detoxify explosive and non-explosive chemical weapons as early as 1998 or 1999. Also, several models for effective public participation (offering more than just the opportunity to comment) exist and could be applied to this program.

There is still time for change before the non-stockpile program goes any further. Hopefully the Army will prove us wrong, and do things differently this time around.

Source: General Accounting Office, 1997


Site Updates

Alabama: The Alabama Department of Environmental Management (ADEM) got an earful from members of Families Concerned About Nerve Gas Incineration and Serving Alabama's Future Environment (SAFE) and other Anniston residents, when public hearings on the incinerator permit were held last month. Together, the meetings drew hundreds of people, some who support incineration and plenty who prefer safer alternatives. Members of the local Burn Busters group represented the concerns of many residents by donning huge rat masks and lab coats, carrying signs saying "Alabamans are not lab rats!" and "Alternatives Do Exist!"

Concerns about possible downwind emissions from the proposed Anniston incinerator prompted the Georgia State Legislature to pass a resolution last February, calling for public hearings on the impact incinerator emissions on Georgia citizens.

Arkansas: A March 26 Citizens Advisory Commission meeting in Pine Bluff drew over 300 people! Concerns expressed at last month's meeting from the emergency preparedness program, to toxic emissions from the incinerator stacks, to lack of confidence in Army contractors showed growing public involvement in the program.

Dr. Abdullah Muhammad, Agriculture professor at University of Arkansas at Pine Bluff and member of Pine Bluff for Safe Disposal is working with college students to conduct testing in order to determine the background level of toxics for the area.

Colorado: The Colorado CAC has moved quickly to work with the Alt Tech II Program (see story on page 7). The CAC has already named three people to represent the Pueblo site on the National CAC, including Sierra Club and CWWG member Ross Vincent.

The Pueblo Depot plans to join in on some local Earth Day celebrations this month by distributing information on its activities, including chemical weapons disposal incineration and the new alternatives program.

Indiana: Now that non-incineration alternative technologies have been chosen for weapons disposal at their site, members of Citizens Against Incineration at Newport continue to push for public involvement in the decision-making process, .

Kalama Island: Operations information for the Pacific incinerator, JACADS, continues to be withheld by the Army and Raytheon, the contractor operating the facility. Groups in Hawaii and the continental U.S. are keeping an eye on the facility not only because of its threat to the environmental and public health, but the implications that plant upsets have on future incinerators. Citizens fear that in this case, what we don't know will hurt us.

Kentucky: Kentucky Senator Wendell Ford paid a visit to Richmond on February 28 to announce his support for ratification of the Chemical Weapons Convention and alternative technologies for the disposal of chemical weapons. Ford, along with CWWG spokesperson Craig Williams at a press conference outside the gates to the Blue Grass Army Depot, said he would do everything in his power to make sure that alternatives are implemented for all of the chemical weapons stockpile.

On April 8, the Blue Grass Army Depot held its first ever public information meeting at the Kingston Elementary School, to distribute information on open detonation. After years of hearing and feeling the blasts of munitions being detonated, local residents took the opportunity to vent their frustrations at Depot officials and hear about some safer, less destructive disposal alternatives.

Maryland: While folks living near the Aberdeen Proving Ground are thankful that the plans for incineration of their stockpile have been scrapped, a greater concern is the Army's open detonation of non-stockpile chemical weapons at the site. As deteriorated and unstable munitions continue to be found on the base, the Army intentionally blows them up releasing unknown amounts of toxics into the environment. While it is true that these deteriorated munitions do pose a risk of self-destruction, this catch 22 scenario makes clear the need for safer disposal methods.

Oregon: The Oregon Environmental Quality Commission (EQC) in November approved moving ahead with plans to build an incinerator at the Umatilla Army Depot. Concerned citizens from all over the state argued against the decision all the way through the public comment period, which the EQC lengthened by three months in order to hear new information on alternative technologies. Members of GASP in Hermiston and the Sierra Club are not taking the EQC's rubber stamp for incineration as final. Legal measures to appeal the commission's decision are being pursued.

Utah: A new grassroots organization called Families Against Incinerator Risks (FAIR) is raising community involvement against the Tooele incinerator to a new level. In addition to organizing petition drives and fund-raisers, FAIR recently held a 'balloon rally' at the gates of the Tooele Army Depot. Children and adults carried signs with slogans calling for safe disposal of chemical weapons (see photo at right), and released large balloons with the attached message "If you are reading this, you were exposed to dioxin." Interestingly, the balloon floated west toward Nevada, raising concerns among Nevada citizens about safe disposal and bringing to mind the adage "We are all downwind!"


Alt Tech II Program to Investigate

Incineration Alternatives

Call them the 'bad boys' of the chemical weapons stockpile: the infamous chemical agent-filled M55 rockets. The Army considers these rockets to be the most difficult to get rid of. So difficult, the Army says, that incineration is the only way to dispose of them. Now, under the new Assembled Chemical Weapon Assessment Program, or "Alt Tech II," the Army will be looking at alternate disposal methods for M55 rockets and other assembled weapons. The Alt Tech II program was created last Fall when Congress allocated $40 million to identify and demonstrate at least two disposal technologies for the assembled weapons. Alternative technologies have already been chosen for the stockpiles in Maryland and Indiana, which consist of ton containers filled with chemical agent.

Congress has withheld funding for incinerators in Colorado and Kentucky until 180 days after the Army reports to Congress with the results of the Alt Tech II program. However, the scope of Alt Tech II includes stockpiles at Utah, Alabama, Oregon, and Arkansas because they also have assembled weapons there. As a result, citizens at those sites are being invited to participate in development of the program as well. Mike Parker, the program's director, has already visited with Citizens Advisory Commissions in Kentucky, Colorado and elsewhere, and says he is committed to giving citizen "stakeholders" a voice in developing criteria to which the technologies can be compared.

Just last month, Teledyne-Commodore announced a portable technology, called the "solvated electron technology" or SET, which it claims can neutralize not only chemical agents, but the propellants and explosives, too. Tests conducted at U.S. Army certified commercial laboratories show that the SET process whereby toxic substances are fed into a tank and neutralized in a mixture of water-free ammonia and metallic sodium can also treat dioxins, PCBs, pesticides and objects or substances contaminated by such poisons. The SET process joins several other "closed-loop" technologies which claim they can safely treat the weapons. A bidding process will invite companies to present their technologies for consideration. Ultimately, an alternative technology pilot plant may be built at one of the stockpile sites for testing.

No one technology will solve the problem of chemical weapons; the more options for disposal we have, the better. Creation of the Alt Tech II program is a step in the right direction leading to safe solutions to the disposal of all chemical weapons.

Keystone Center Offers Help with Public

Involvement Process

What will the Army do with input about chemical weapons disposal?

What role will stakeholders have in comparing disposal technologies to the criteria, or where a technology will be used or tested?

These are some of the questions about the chemical weapons disposal issue to which the Keystone Center hopes to get some answers. The Keystone Center is a non-profit mediation organization that helps foster dialogue between the Army and citizen "stakeholders." The Army has asked the Keystone Center to help create a process for public involvement in the Alt Tech II program. Representatives from the Center have already spoken with citizens at Citizens Advisory Commissions (CAC) the groups serving as a conduit for citizen concerns, to the Army and other agencies and with members of the Chemical Weapons Working Group to gather ideas for this process.

The Keystone Center has already outlined some 'next steps,' such as:

· Forming a National Citizens Advisory Commission, including up to two community members from each of the six sites (excluding Maryland and Indiana), state regulators, and representatives from the Army.

· Assigning the CAC to begin discussions on criteria for new technologies, and issues of accountability. The CAC would be responsible for sending information to, and getting feedback from local citizen stakeholders.

· Scheduling frequent meetings of this National CAC in April - July.

· Establishing communication links between the National CAC and state CACs (i.e. internet, mailings, presentations).


Alabama The Nation's Toxic Dump?

by Nikki Christian, Serving Alabama's Future Environment


Alabama is on the verge of acquiring the negative image of hazardous waste dump for the nation. Emelle, home of the country's largest dump for low-level radioactive waste, was a major step toward that image. What may clinch it is the incinerator planned to destroy chemical weapons at the Anniston Army Depot.

While Alabama is one of eight states where chemical weapons are stored, it may become one of only two states where the controversial incineration method is used. If the Alabama Department of Environmental Management proceeds with plans to grant the necessary permits, construction of the second incinerator would get underway by this Fall at Anniston. The chemical weapons stored in Indiana and Maryland will be destroyed by neutralization, a "closed-loop" process which releases no toxic particles into the air and poses no risk of deadly leaks.

In the 1997 Defense Appropriations bill, Congress decreed that no funds could be spent during this year to build incinerators in Kentucky and Colorado. The ban on spending could have included Alabama if Senators Howell Heflin and Richard Shelby had agreed. They did not. There has been discussion in Washington about limiting the use of incinerators to Tooele, Utah and Anniston one West of the Mississippi and one East. In this case, weapons stored at the other six sites would be destroyed by other methods...or some might be transported to Utah and Alabama. Federal law currently prohibits the shipping of chemical weapons across state lines because it is considered too dangerous, and because public opposition to transportation is high. But Congress made the law, and Congress could change it.

How would economic development be affected by six or seven years of operation of a weapons incinerator in Alabama? The indications are not encouraging. Businesses tend to avoid controversy and uncertain risks. Tooele County, Utah Commissioner Teryl Hunsaker summed up that area's experience. "Companies take one look and that's the last time we see them. Annistonians are going to have the same problems we're having." The Army has recognized this problem. It offered to pay Tooele County $13 million in compensation for economic losses due to the incinerator there.


A Jacksonville State University survey showed that 60% of area residents opposed chemical weapons incineration. Just 13% supported incineration.


Why is the Army so insistent on an incinerator in Alabama while allowing other areas to consider the use of apparently less dangerous methods for destroying chemical weapons? One big difference seems to be local opposition. Governors, members of Congress and local leaders in other states have opposed the incineration method. Of all the state and local leadership in Alabama, only one County Commissioner, Robert Downing of Calhoun County, has called for consideration of other means of destruction. This does not mean that the people of Northeast Alabama favor incineration. The Jacksonville State University Business School faculty recently conducted a random telephone survey of 500 area residents, asking how they felt about weapons destruction methods. Sixty percent were opposed to incinerators; 27 percent said they were neutral or needed additional information. Just 13 percent supported incineration.

The Army has claimed that Alabama can't wait to use other technologies because incineration is available right now, and there is the danger that the weapons may explode. But the Army's own study, "M55 Rocket Storage Life Evaluation" found that "There is less than one-in-a-million chance that the first rocket will auto-ignite before the year 2013, even using the most conservative model...." And the study covered all the weapons stored in the United States.

If there are risks connected with continued storage of the weapons, there are certainly risks with incineration. The numerous releases of chemical agent at the incinerators in the Pacific and Utah, and the testimonies of safety problems from former plant employees show that incineration poses a high risk to nearby communities.

An incinerator at the Anniston Army Depot is not just a concern for the six counties immediately downwind from the chemical weapons stockpile. The safety hazards and economic losses would affect all of Alabama and the image of the state nationally and abroad. Alabama citizens and our elected political representatives must work for safe alternatives to chemical weapons incineration...and a more positive future for us all.


"Companies take one look [at Tooele] and that's the last time we see them. Annistonians are going to have the same [economic] problems we're having."

-- Tooele Co. Commissioner Teryl Hunsaker


Are Incinerator Employees "One Big Happy Family?"

by Melissa Tuckey, Kentucky Environmental Foundation

On March 14, the Army Chemical Demilitarization Public Affairs Office issued a press release announcing that the Army Safety Center had completed its investigation of former General Manager Gary Millar's safety complaints. Not surprisingly, the Center found that "the [Tooele plant] has an effective safety program." That the Army investigated itself and found itself safe is not exactly an objective investigation. But the Safety Center really went overboard when it reported that "TOCDF employees demonstrated a family-like bond, holding safety as the paramount criteria for any procedure or operation."

This investigation was conducted in November and December of 1996, and relied mostly on interviews with upper level management. In contrast, the Employee Safety Committee at TOCDF conducted its own survey just a month earlier, and found that 100% of respondants reported low morale and/or high stress. The survey reports that many workers did not complete the survey "for fear of being sent to the Gulag," and adds "There is a clear impression that any criticism of programs, policies, or implementation plans, leads not to improvement, but to disciplinary action. There is a clear feeling of mistrust." Here are some of the comments from the employee surveys.

"Being at TOCDF is a lot like being at Little Big Horn with Custer. Arrogance was the cause of both disasters."

"A great deal of stress is being caused by mandates to perform to schedules workers know can't be met."

"Capable personnel have been moved out of the way to make room for yes men."

"The attitude and ability of management gives all employees the feeling of riding out a very slow train wreck"

"Everyone here is afraid they will lose their jobs if they say anything."

"There is little incentive to finish training and get certified because there are no step raises."

"Is one person in the warehouse on nights and week-ends safe? I thought we had a buddy rule."

"Evacuation procedures are inadequate."

"Safety issues are voiced to supervisors and no action is taken."

"Contrary to popular belief in the management class, the double fence is not agent proof."

One big happy family? Guess it depends on who you ask....



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